Conference : Saxophones : Saxophone Topics of Discussion http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2 Well in my experience, an intermediate horn is not built as "rugged" as a student model. It is made for a person who should know how to care for the instrument....the rods and keywork are softer, there may not be as many keygaurds on an intermediate model. They usually have a nicer looking finish than the student model. I believe my 52 had plastic key touches, where my 62 had MOP. the 52 had lower palm keys than my 62. The 62, i believe had much more engraving. I had the same mouthpiece for both the 52 and 62....although that is irrelevant, you can always buy a better mouthpeice than what comes with a horn. As far as the body, and all of the other tiny details, I can not say... I know when I purchased my English horn, I was torn between the intermediate model and the pro model. I ended up going with the lower end pro model. I wanted plastic (lower maintenance), but did not want a "modified key system" which basically means they left off a couple of alternate keys on the intermediate model. Even that little difference was a big cost difference- about $2000! Maybe with a saxophone, it is harder to tell....with the clarinet, oboe, and English horn, it is a little more clear cut- materials, keywork, etc.... Shanda http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=1 2013-05-19T17:11:46-07:00 Intermediate Models? What does an intermediate horn have that a student horn doesnot, and what does it lack that a professioal horn has? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=2 2013-05-19T16:23:59-07:00 Intermediate Models? I have a little experience with this with instruments from the late 1980's until the early 1990's. The first horn I owned was a yamaha YAS-23, purchased new in 1986. I played it until the fall of 1988, at which time I switched to tenor. I briefly played an olds parisian (pos)tenor. When a friend of mine graduated that spring, I bought his tenor, a YTS-52. he purchased it new a couple of years earlier. In 1993, i bought my first pro horn- a YTS-62. The 52 was definately a step above the 23. the finish was different, and the case was more sturdy....it was more substantial than the 62 case. The horn was closer to the 62 than the 23....it was not the "sherman tank" model built for beginners. I managed to bend a rod on the 52, because the keywork was not as "thick" or rigid as the 23. It was close enough to a pro horn, that if I weren't a music major at the time, it would have been sufficient to get me through band and other ensembles I played in. The 62 was still a much better quality horn over the 52. The palm keys were also much higher on the 62, which presented a problem for me.... I went through this decision over the "step up" horn a couple of years ago with my son. The school (or rather the music store they had a contract with) would pressure second year students into buying a step-up model. At that point, after my experience in school and seeing how prices have soared on instruments, this is the decision I made for my son: if he made it to his sophmore year of High school in band, we would buy him a new instrument. By then the student should have an idea of whether they want to pursue music after High school, or if this was just going to be a hobby. If he was certain that he would play into college, then we would buy him a pro-horn. If not, then probably a semi-pro horn, to get him through High School. I agree, the price does not justify "stair-stepping" up to the pro horn. If you know a student is going to play past high school, then it would make sense to go ahead and purchase the pro horn, maybe used to save a few dollars. If the student needs a better horn, but does not intend to play past high school, then the semi-pro horn may make more sense- a little cheaper than the pro, but better quality than the student model. With all of this said, i guess this all depends on the brand and the current spec's for semi-pro verses pro horns. Shanda http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=3 2013-05-19T12:30:18-07:00 Intermediate Models? how DO you make a pull down neck round again? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B9E3D794-C0FF-EBBC-E4C6D0E7A8417638&r=4 2013-05-19T09:51:14-07:00 Pulled Down Neck Your neck has probably had the metal "work hardened" in the accident. This will get worse as you try to straighten it out and make it round again. The metal wii become hard and brittle and will not resonate. You will most likely need to replace the neck if you want to restore maximum performance. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B9E3D794-C0FF-EBBC-E4C6D0E7A8417638&r=5 2013-05-18T16:52:16-07:00 Pulled Down Neck Saxgourmet Voodoo Master? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=6 2013-05-18T16:39:52-07:00 Intermediate Models? In a number of cases, I would agree, but I think that some horns by some manufacturers (perhaps not current models) the intermediate horns still got you the same body tube, bell, keys and ergonomics - maybe different grade springs, surface finish/engraving and different key touchs, like plastic instead of MoP. But going without the bling could still get you a decent performing horn if willing to go that route and you didn't have alot of Benjamins in your wallet. Again, this isn't (or wasn't) always the case, but I think that there are a number of close examples. maybe such as the Yamaha YTS-52 versus the 61/62, or the H Couf Superba II (Royalist) versus the Superba I. Then again there are (or perhaps were) some entry level horns that could really sing with a good player behind them. Some of the present Selmer/Yamaha mid level horns with the alphanumeric soup of model names I think intentionally try to muddy the waters and are basically just a bit of window dressing on the same basic entry horn. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=7 2013-05-18T16:08:55-07:00 Intermediate Models? I got lucky this morning and bought a YTS-62 at a yard sale down the street for $100. The horn looks to be in fairly good condition overall except for the neck which has been pulled down to the point that the top was touching the bottom. When I got it home, and figuring I had nothing to lose, I put the neck in the receiver and pulled up. Much to my amazement, the neck went back into basically the right shape, although it is still decidedly oval. The neck is not split or cracked along the bend line. How do you get it back to round, and will it ever play correctly? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B9E3D794-C0FF-EBBC-E4C6D0E7A8417638&r=8 2013-05-18T16:05:16-07:00 Pulled Down Neck I learned from Steve how to make a "modification" of the never-stick G# mechanism & it's worked quite well, though for me it's a bit time-consuming to do. I also experimented with a version using a ring & flat spring system patterned after the linkage you find/found on the Selmer low C#. So far, I've not been very successful. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=67584BB1-E6F5-0521-4D4A66F93D2F1B0A&r=9 2013-05-18T08:43:23-07:00 Saxgourmet Never Stick G# Why would anyone be interested in one of the "big name's" so-called intermediate models? My experience has been that they usually offer a different case, a different finish, and maybe a different mouthpiece from the "student", entry-level models. What say you? And of course a higher price that the entry-level horns. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=B84979DE-AD7E-BC33-38DEC74D9666C0D7&r=10 2013-05-18T08:37:03-07:00 Intermediate Models? The old horns were often well built, but no more so than most name brand modern horns. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that modern horns are built BETTER. This "better craftsmanship in the past" stuff is nothing more than a symptom of the horn worship Steve keeps talking about. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=ADB03E39-BD40-0130-AE26C7A0559468B7&r=11 2013-05-16T15:04:39-07:00 The Great Elkhart Craftsmen Good comment Robert. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=67584BB1-E6F5-0521-4D4A66F93D2F1B0A&r=12 2013-05-16T12:42:18-07:00 Saxgourmet Never Stick G# Steve has written about this at length before. It is the amount of surface area more than the material which has the most affect on tonal quality. So an ebony disk that came close to the tonehole walls would have way more effect than a brass disk that didn't. A domed reso is also more effective than a flat one because the dome shape has inherently more surface area. So a thin dome wouold be more effective thatn a thich flat disk. There are also some theories about how far an object can intrude into the tonehole chimney before affecting the standing wave adversely. There are some very interesting articles on the Acoustic Society of America webpage if you're into the science of the subject. More than anything though, when in doubt consult a PRO. Guys like Steve, Curt Altarac, Matt Stohrer, Ken Beeson and others have actually tried or encountered all of this in their careers. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=90FCE343-0509-053B-F79C151119A78831&r=13 2013-05-16T11:21:10-07:00 Glued On Resonators I think messing with this is a very bad I idea on so many levels (unless the neck is already damaged and bent and we are talking about a needed REPAIR). There is no telling how this will turn out once you start bending the neck. I had a customer who bent a Selmer Mk VI neck at a gig. We filled the neck with pitch and carefully straightened it and re-shaped it and it was fine. But then he did it again and the 2nd time I straitened it, the neck lost all resonance and he had to buy a new neck. Bending necks back and forth is very hard on them and there is no telling how many times you can do this before you totally kill the necks resonance. The alto sax I currently play suffered neck damaged by a stage hand 2 years ago. It was a new sax and it only took for that neck being bent ONCE to totally kill the neck. Fortunately for me my saxophone came alive again after Steve Goodson put his new Solid Copper Saxgourmet neck on it. In fact, now it sounds better then ever (and it looks cool too). If you are unhappy with the neck on your saxophone...I strongly suggest you leave it alone and just start looking for another neck that you DO like. Messing with it or having a so-called "expert" changing things on it could very well go wrong...and it often does. I know all the tricks of the trade for neck modifications and where to "touch them up" with Drummel and expanding tools, but I never allowed work like that to be done in my shop because those changes are dramatic changes that you cannot go back on if the player doesn't like it. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=A366FC11-FA1B-4A79-E509EA5EF1B1BD11&r=14 2013-05-16T11:09:05-07:00 Change Neck Angle? Not only does it all get swabbed before I leave the gig, but once a week the mouthpieces get a good scrubbing with a soft toothbrush and dried with a soft cloth. Good hygiene is not just for the player! http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=67584BB1-E6F5-0521-4D4A66F93D2F1B0A&r=15 2013-05-16T10:57:58-07:00 Saxgourmet Never Stick G# I hear vintage horn advocates constantly referring to the great craftsmen of Elkhart and giving their unique abilities all the credit for building great horns in the past. Were they really that good? Better than today's workers? What was unique about them? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=ADB03E39-BD40-0130-AE26C7A0559468B7&r=16 2013-05-16T07:13:28-07:00 The Great Elkhart Craftsmen Am I correct that if you change the curve of the neck you would have to lengthen or shorten the octave key? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=A366FC11-FA1B-4A79-E509EA5EF1B1BD11&r=17 2013-05-15T17:06:00-07:00 Change Neck Angle? yes, this could be done....I've done it......some players want there angle of the neck changed so that the playing position is more comfortable for them.....this is a very messy process: you have to remove everything soldered onto the neck tube, fill the neck with something (lead, pitch, or something) to prevent kinking, then place the neck in a bending jig and very carefully bend the tube. Then you have to re-attach all the bits you removed, modifying them as necessary. The re-finish the neck, since you destroyed the original finish in this process. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=A366FC11-FA1B-4A79-E509EA5EF1B1BD11&r=18 2013-05-15T07:26:39-07:00 Change Neck Angle? Piano wire is just that: the wire they use to string pianos.....it is often used for flute springs. http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=89C0436A-A367-2EE5-72AC42D18F896163&r=19 2013-05-14T14:24:00-07:00 Questions About Springs why would you want to do this? http://www.nationofmusic.com/Galleon2messages.cfm?threadid=A366FC11-FA1B-4A79-E509EA5EF1B1BD11&r=20 2013-05-14T09:38:42-07:00 Change Neck Angle?