I've been reading on different newsgroups and forums that all of the horns made in Taiwan are basically the same, or at least limited to only a few (I think the number of four came up) variations. I accept the fact that many of the factories use common sources for some components, but I find it very difficult to believe that there are actually so few variations other than the brand that is engraved on the bell. I would apprecioate it if some light (Steve?) could be shed on this topic. Are most of them really the same?

I've read that stuff. The various writers don't have a clue how it really works across the Great Waters to the West. True, some horns are bought off the shelf and re-branded (Barone comes to mind), and true, if you want to have a line of horns with your name on them, all you have to do is buy the minimum order and any number of companies will be most happy to accomodate you. The reality is that you can have anything you want built if you are willing to pay for it. The manufacturing caabilities are there, the only limitation is your budget. Many of the leading brands are totally unique. All of our horns are made to our exact specifications, and are available nowhere else. I read on SOTW that there are really only four different horns made in Taiwan. This is not correct. The same poster also states that most of the horns are made in Houli. That is also incorrect. Some horns are made there, but the largest makers are all located elsewhere.It has also been stated that some factories are just assembelers, putting together horns from components purchased elsewhere. This is true, but the major companies all pretty much manufacture their own components. The same forum also states that there is a significant difference in quality between horns made in Taiwan, China, and other Asian nations. I've been doing this for a long time, and I can't tell the difference between the best products of each nation.

Since you brought it up, could you tell us which horns ARE the same?

I could, but then I would have to kill you........my many friends in Asia would NEVER forgive me for sharing confidential information

I think that a lot of people say the horns are the same because the reality is that a great many of the Asian horns are pretty much direct copies of the Selmer Super 80 or Yamaha Custom. Of course they seem to be the same, because they are copies of the same horns.

I do have to hand it to this one East Asian manufacturer. They really put together a good promotional video. But most people will identify that this brand of saxophones is not named after the company's namesake. Unfortunately, I believe this was a mistake for it provides a substantive disconnect between marketing and sales tactics and the "passion" Mr. Hsieh has for his instruments. I immediately questioned this company's legitimacy because of this disconnect. I do wish Alex Hsieh had placed his name on the instrument vs. the P. Mauriat name; he could have done so in mandarin if he liked. I don't know who the heck P. Mauriat is, but the Taiwanese nationalistic pride seems to stop short of actually naming the instrument after the company's founder. Could you imagine is Steve renamed a new make of his saxophones "???????? ????" and stamped that cyrillic on the bell to appease his Russian market. I don't care how well P. Mauriat saxophones play; the company and its owner lack legitimacy, IMO, because they're not keeping it real. Lien Cheng saxophones, on the other hand, stamp their name right on the bell--that's keeping it real.

Paul Mauriat was a French band leader known for his hit (?) "Love is Blue". The first Mauriat horns said "Paris" on them. It's always been a scam.

Lien Cheng does in fact stamp their name right on the bell.....but the vast majority of their horns are built for other companies....you almost NEVER see one with their name on it, always somebody else's name....real good horns, BTW

Could you tell us some of the brand names they build for?

Frank brings up in interesting point. Although I really disagree with "stampings" on Taiwan woodwinds being placed there as a "Scam." They are all CLEARLY MARKED where they are made, you would have to be brain-dead to miss it.

So the question is why stamp "New York" on the bell of a Selmer (Paris) MK VI?

Why Put "Salt Lake City" on a Cannonball?

Why stamp "New Orleans" on a Goodson saxes?

Why is "Paris" stamped on a P. Mauriat?

Why are we NOT getting upset when we by a mouthpiece stamped "New York" that was clearly made in California, Florida, Georgia, or made no where near New York.

How about all the high-end instruments and mouthpieces stamped "Vintage" that are BRAND NEW?

I can certainly agree with Frank that it sounds shady, nefarious and underhanded, especially coming from a land that started it all 30 years ago by making counterfeit Selmer Mk VI's at one time. But today the markings are there not for trickery, but for OTHER reasons.

I was personally told (face to face) by Alex Hsieh and Professor Roger Greenberg (the developers at P. Mauriat), the P. Mauriat name is a registered trademark brand name in France. It is placed on all kinds of different high-end designer goods, just like Gucci, Christian Dior, etc. For what ever the reason, Alex bought the rights to use the P. Mauriat brand name for his saxophones. The agreement was the P. Mauriat name had to be an approve logo that included (Paris) on the logo. Rodger told me they are building the P. Mauriat with French hand-hammered brass so they felt it was aptly represented as an instrument clearly stamped "Made in Taiwan" with French brass...as it is stated in their brochures.

Tevis over at Cannonball told me he named his horn "The Global Series" because he gleans parts and material from 7 different countries.

I think more attention needs to be placed on the merits of the individual instrument and the MUSIC instead of what is stamped on the side of the bell. The fact is (like it or not), Taiwan is making some SERIOUS saxophones today. France, Germany and Japan are not the only kids on the block. This really is a big win for players because we have more choices and preference the we had in the 50's & 60s.

As we observe what is going on in the far east, keep in mind nobody played on Yamaha & Yanagasawa prior the the 70's.

The world changes.

The engraving of New York, London, and Paris on Selmer saxophones indicated where the company had offices. The factory was never in Paris, but in Mantes. The offices were, however, always in Paris.

I have not seen horns made in China, Taiwan, or other countries stamped with the actual country of origin in years. Nobody does it anymore. It used to be common, but it is now almost never done.

For Mauriat to stamp Paris on their horn is very dishonest. I also doubt if the brass was French. They are simply liars.

There was never even the most remote connection with Paris. Alex and Roger knew that, yet they chose to put Paris on the horns. They are responsible, and I cannot think of any reasonable explanation which excuses their lies. Mauriat obviously cannot be trusted or believed. They knowingly tried to trick buyers.

I have to agree with Jim about this business of calling new horn vintage. I don't see anybody making duplicates of the 57 Chevrolet.....

With all due respect, I don't believe the comparison made between P. Mauriat and Gucci and Christian Dior is a fair comparison. Gucci was founded by the Italian G. Gucci in the early 1920s. P. Mauriat was founded by Alex Hsieh of Taiwan. P. Mauriat had nothing to do with the company other than a deceptive marketing tactic to sell horns with a French twist.

Excellent points, Benjamin......I cam think of no possible justification for the sort of deception Mauriat did....I now find it impossible to believe anything they currently say.....the ownership is the same, and a proven liar.

Neither of my Saxgourmet horns say anything about New Orleans on them

But I would offer that Steve could stamp "New Orleans" all over his horns and still maintain his credibility. Steve owns Saxgourmet, he lives in the city, I would presume his horns are received through the port, he designs his horns here, so the connection is there.

P. Mauriat saxophones are not owned by P. Mauriat, not designed by P. Mauriat, don't travel through Paris, and are not even designed in Paris. An example of legitimacy can be readily seen in Nordstrom's private label brands. I have a few John W. Nordstrom sport coats. On the label it reads, "Fabric Woven in Italy," and "Made in China." I love it. Each nation has its comparative advantage, but it's cheaper to ship Italian fabric to Chins to make the shirts.

Regardless, P. Mauriat saxophones should come with a disclaimer and P. Mauriat consumers should know/become aware of the deceptive/unfair trade practice Alex Hsieh is perpetuating.

In my experience, there are different levels of differentiation at different price points. At the low end of the price spectrum, the horns are mostly Yamaha/Yanagisawa/Selmer copies of varying quality with a mostly meaningless name stamped on it- unless the name means you can get warranty service, like Sam Ash's line of Jean Baptiste horns vs. something you get on ebay. In this price point it is more common that many different names can be on the same exact horn, or different makers will both try to copy (say) a Yanagisawa, so while even the maker is actually different the horn they want to make is the same- but obviously they meet with varying degrees of success.

At the upper levels of the price spectrum you have less of the off-the-shelf, stamp-a-name thing going on and much more customization of a base product- maybe body tubes could be the same, but keywork is different and the neck is different. Or you'll find the same keywork on different bodies... the combinations go on and on. Then you've also got some horns that are unique and available nowhere else, like Steve's horns and the (oh no! it says Paris!) Mauriat 76 2nd edition tenor (I grant you that name is a mouthful).

-As an aside, it is too bad that whatever Mauriat might be making, people are so turned off by words on the bell. It doesn't really bother me personally, but I wish they would remove it for the sake of clarity. I am sure they have been asked about it thousands of times, so there must be a good reason to keep it on there. What Jim says on this score is interesting. I don't think people think of made-in-Taiwan as a problem anymore, and the smart guys know that being honest and unmistakably clear about provenance is a good business move.-

So depending on what you buy, there may be legions of similar horns out there at varying price points, or there might not. Fact is unless you either get information from a reliable expert or are one yourself, you probably won't know for sure.
* Last updated by: MattStohrer on 4/21/2012 @ 2:16 AM *

I think that it's worth considering that there are only so many things you can alter on the basic configuration of a saxophone and have it still function as a saxophone most people can use. If you examine the history of the instrument, there have actually been very, very few variations and improvements made over the years. Hence, all the horns look the same.

My primary issue with P. Mauriat is exactly that--its name being Paul Mauriat. If Paul Mauriat had contacted Alex Hsieh and asked him to be the CEO of a saxophone Paul wanted to make, I could tolerate the name. But Alex Hsieh, seeking to avoid a S.E. Asian name and/or seeking a French name (I believe it was both) set out to make a saxophone "brand" and acquired the intellectual property rights to do exactly that. Both actions are deceptive branding practices as the clear objective is to mislead the consumer into a purchase. And it is clear that many consumers have been misled (not all; not most). P. Mauriat instruments relied on that initial deception to acquire economic gain and their current popularity. This is an issue for me. I don't think these are opinions; the preponderance of evidence tends to suggest P. Mauriat's business model (early on and/or currently) is deceptive. As a final point, I also believe Alex Hsieh thought (yes, his intent) he would be successful (or much more successful) if he deceived his consumer base with a basic perception that Western nations might reject a Taiwanese-made instrument (he apparently did not think much of us).

P. Mauriat's horns play very well, but I would very much like to see Lien Cheng saxophones and other properly branded Taiwanese saxophones gain there "legitimate" share of the market. (I don't play either; I like Yamaha, Selmer, and Yanigasawa.)

Chang Lien Cheng deserves the credit for the status of the Taiwanese saxophone industry. His web address is: http://www.lcsax.com/aboutus.html. I don't know what other Taiwanese brands exist, but whatever they are, they deserve credit as well, IMO.
* Last updated by: Benjamin_Allen on 4/21/2012 @ 2:20 PM *

The first time I walked into Carlton musics' repair shop and showed Chuck my new horn he was stunned at the look of the Steve Goodson Model Gold Plated alto. The first thing he said was wow. Then when I told him where it was made he became sceptical but said he would take a look at it. He noticed right away it didn't appear to be built on the same platform as the other import horns he sees on a daily basis. I explained it was Steve's original design and that I really liked what I hearde and felt so far coming from the horn.

I purchased this sax when Orpheo and Steve had their split. Got a great deal on it but it had some issues from transit damage. I think it was a previous return.

A week goes by and I return to pick up my sax. When Chuck came out with it he had a dazed and confused look on his face. I asked him what he thought and he said something to the effect that he and his fellow techs own some of the best built and playing saxes ever made and that this Goodson model is as good as any of them in build, sound and playability. He really dug some of the unique features of the sax and just couldn't believe what I had paid for it. I think it really shook up his core beliefs in the quality of import saxes. He was truly impressed.

I still have one of these in alto and tenor models, great saxes. I still prefer my super 400's but the Steve Goodson model has a unique feel and sound that I still enjoy. I keep them at my girls house on a nice wall stands as functional art. I also use them as a backup of my main axes need servicing.

Is there a directory of Taiwanese and Chinese saxophone manufacturers posted anywhere?

I think we can all agree that the saxophone industry is pretty much an Asian industry now, and I think it's pretty dishonest for the Asian companies to give the horns European names.

I've got to disagree with you, Bobby. It's very common to use "local" names in many industries. But the "Paris" business is just plain dishonest.

Just as a clarification, our only office is in New Orleans....we have discontinued our distributors in Europe and Asia....we no longer sell to retail dealers there.....we provide substantial components to our factories....our horns contain components from seven different countries....final assembly of all our instruments is done at our offices in New Orleans
* Last updated by: admin on 6/30/2012 @ 6:58 PM *

Steve
Can you (or more appropriately) would you disclose to us how many factories you use to build your horns? Are the necks and the bodies always built at the same place?

Just for my own curiosity ... Why is any of this important? ... If they horn works for you what is what should it matter.

Yamahas makes my hands cramp. All Selmers sound tinny to me, even Mark VIs. I have played, but do not own, several of Steve's designs. The best I have ever played. I don't care if they are made on Mars, They are players and that is all that matters.
* Last updated by: Jim_Moncher on 7/11/2012 @ 7:28 AM *

You're right, of course, Jim. It doesn't make any difference where things are made. The final quality is all that is important.

Our necks and horn bodies are NOT always made in the same factory....sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.

Steve,
This is rare, but I disagree re. whether it matters where a saxophone is made. It matters very much where they are made. Some markets have labor rates that are so exceedingly expensive and regulated that the manufacture of anything will be subject to an exponential price increase. Thank goodness for S and SE Asia as these developing markets are offering a source for quality products with reasonable labor rates. It's interesting that Selmer (Paris), in a bid to remain competitive, is forced to reduce production time (quality and finish?) and raise costs above the margin to maintain profit margins. (I am a big Selmer (Paris) and Keilwerth fan, BTW.)

Why do so many Americans have so many issues with S Asia and SE Asia? I have a problem with companies like P. Mauriat that perpetuate fraud, not with their labor force.

Well put, Ben.....it is high time that the Western countries got around to recognizing that it is now a world economy. I also agree totally with you that P. Mauriat is a fraud.